My Rise don’t fly

Total Posts: 7

Joined 2008-07-28

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Hello,

After reading so many good comments on the forums, I bought a brand new Rise 2008 12m. I also bought a Mako Wide which works really well, and I am very satisfied with this board. But My Rise simply won’t fly!

The first time I tried it, it was on setting #1 (factory setting) and the wind was 12-15 knots. Right after launching, I noticed that the kite was very sensitive to backstalling. Even slight steering-pull to lift the kite to the zenith resulted in backstalling. To be able to lift the kite to the zenith I had to apply very gentle steering with slack back lines. If I was applying “normal” steering, the kite was simply falling down. I tried various trim adjustments but none of them resulted in better flying… The kite was even backstalling with back lines being slack… It’s not that the kite is not performing well, it is simply not flying… it is so instable in the air.
So I checked on this forum for any hint on what could be happening with this kite.

I first checked the length of the bar lines, from the bar (with fully extended trim) to the end of the lines loops (the 10cm knot-extensions on the back lines removed). I noticed that the back lines were 1/2 inch longer than the front lines. But I don’t think that would explain the flying behavior of the kite.
Then I checked the length of the bridles with the bridles measurement chart that was posted on this forum. The right and left bridles are the same lengths. But most of the bridles are in average 1 cm shorter that they are supposed to be (according to the chart). I don’t know if it is significant or not, or if it falls within normal length variations.

I tried to fly the kite again, this time on setting #2 and in 12-17 knots winds, and it was even worse! I was not even able to fly the kite up to the zenith, it was falling before that. The closer it was to the zenith, the more instable it was in the air… I could launch all right (even relaunch) but I could not pass 10:30 or 1:30 (in the wind window).

Now I am deseperate… I have a brand new kite that does not fly… I hope you will have some suggestions for me. I think something major, or obvious, is going on but I don’t know what! It might as well be me, but I have no clue what I would do wrong. I have never flown a kite that behaves so badly.

Thanks for your help,

Vincent


Total Posts: 56

Joined 2008-07-12

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I wish I could help. But all I can say that my new 10 m is perfect.
I was in trouble for the first time , cause the front bridles are velcrod to the LE and therefore I could not find the attachment points for the front lines.  After that I thought I was not able to launch the kite, and it looked that the backlines were much longer than they should be. Then the 2nd try it launched, somehow just differently than my XBow, and everything is heaven since then.
I am sure somebody from OR will answer your questions soon, and your problem will be solved?
How do you like your Mako? Did you have a normal TT before? Is it a big difference ?


Total Posts: 25

Joined 2007-01-29

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Set it up on the front attachment and the furthest back attachment. (farthest from each other) Have fun and enjoy the rise.. :D


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Total Posts: 84

Joined 2007-08-02

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If you took these off put them back on…

(the 10cm knot-extensions on the back lines removed).

Attache on front most points in front and back. Make sure your lines left to right are even…

Pull in the trim strap if it is stalling in that wind. If you can have a look at the Ikitsurf graph of that day and time to see if the lulls were lower than you thought or the variance was high between high and low…

If you find that it works well with the trim in say 2” or what ever for a longer period… Put the back picktail out 2” if not enough tomatch what you had for good trim in you also have room to move out back lines below floats at bar end.

For temporary on bad weather days, just trim in for a while.

Better yet have another kiter try it if you can… If ly the 12 as my main kite and I could ask for a better kites… I do notice a big difference on the weather and wind as it changes from day to day and even from hr to hr…

Hope that helps…

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Total Posts: 7

Joined 2008-05-14

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I also bought a 12 2008 rise the second time i used it in light winds though and it dropped backwards all the time as well never had that before, anyhow after the first time i flew it i checked the line lengths the fronts were about 2 maybe 3 inches shorter than the back lines but after the second time i used the kite and it stalled i decided to set it back the way it came pre set and no problems now, try that i did see some one else put a post up on the same problem and did that as well. Now the more i use it the better it seems to fly stretching in.


Total Posts: 7

Joined 2008-07-28

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Thanks you all guys for your suggestions and comments.

Joecult, the setting you are talking about is setting #4. I am willing to try any setting but I would be surprised that it would be a matter of settings at this point… It was not a matter of more-or-less bar pressure or more-or-less turning speed. Like I said, the kite was not even flying to the zenith in static (or with difficulty) in 14 knots of wind (12-17)... And I believe the kite should be able to fly correctly with all 4 settings.

I do not have an official wind report of the last day I tried the kite but I talk to a guy that day with a windmeter and he said that the wind was blowing between 12 to 17 knots. There were about 20 kiters riding on the water at the same time I tried mine. They were mostly riding 11m (girls), 12m and 13m kites of comparable generation as the Rise. So I don’t think it is a matter of wind either…

I removed the foolproof connectors (10cm extensions) at the end of back lines when I check the length of the bar lines, in order to be able to attach the lines to something solid. These connectors transform end-loops into knots. Of course, I put them back when I rigged and tried the kite. My back lines were about 1/2 inch longer than my front lines without the foolproof connectors, so they would have been more than 10cm longer with them…

I checked posts on this forum for possible solutions to my problem. Solutions I found were checking bar lines lengths and bridles lengths (especially E2), which I did. I don’t know if the length differences with the charts that I measured (small differences) could account for the bad flying behavior of my kite. I’d like to have the opinion of the experts on that point.

I will try the kite again when I can and try the other settings and different trim adjustments but I am doubtful, and desesperate now, that it will completely transform the flying behavior of this kite to the best.

Thank you again guys for your suggestions. I am still not sure what precisely will fix my problem so I still need your help if you have more suggestions. Also, it would be helpful to have the opinion of someone from Ocean Rodeo, they might have reports of other persons with similar problems…

Vincent


Total Posts: 14

Joined 2006-01-09

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iwave, re-read page 10 of your SLE kite manual. The front and back lines should be of equal length with the center line un-cleated and fully extended. You said that your back lines “would be more than 10 cm longer than your front lines…” [with the foolproof connectors]. This would be equivalent to de-powering your kite. They should be equal length. Make certain. Check with the foolproof connectors attached. Hope this helps.

Joe

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Total Posts: 84

Joined 2007-08-02

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Just wondering. How long have you been kiting? days…
and weight
and board size?
This info can help to figure it out.

I do allot of kite repair here and some tuning for customers. If you find you are stuck you could send your kite to me and I’ll test it out.

I can tell you that I’m very focused on the feel of these kites, but never measure the front lines compared to the back, it a good base but does not cover all factors that come into play. But I do make sure left to right on front lines are the same and back, but mostly testing back for left and right by having the kite a zenith and how the bar is angled, parallel… feel….

Much of it is just the solution to correct behavior of the angle of attack, feel without as much focus on measuring. Hope that helps.

[quote author=“iwave”]

Thank you again guys for your suggestions. I am still not sure what precisely will fix my problem so I still need your help if you have more suggestions. Also, it would be helpful to have the opinion of someone from Ocean Rodeo, they might have reports of other persons with similar problems…

Vincent

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Total Posts: 173

Joined 2005-12-27

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OK,..lets try and solve this!
Line setup:
1) put back lines on the forward rear pig tail. This reduces the effect of oversheeting the kite. (powering up)
2) put front lines on the forward front attachment. (gives the best depower option)

Check your front bridal E2 bridal line, it should be 24”. This is important.

Other comments: you must have full sheeting control over your kite by correct line lengths. Front lines that are too short will not allow you to “power” up the kite and stop it from flying too far to edge of the wind window.
If you go with sligthly longer fonts, you can always shorten them “on the fly” by trimming in your centre line (with the cleat on the chicken loop). This depowers the kite.
Flying basics:
1) Kite flys backwards, push your bar away. (depower). Kite will “Rise”
2) Kite luffs or goes up and over your head, pull the bar towards you(power up), Kite will “back up” in the wind window.



Total Posts: 108

Joined 2007-01-24

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I think these are all good suggestions.

One thing to note is that OR ships their lines with the front lines a little shorter…as they will stretch after a session or two. I just got a new pair of lines and after a 35 kt Maui session they stretched quickly smile

A big thing to think about/ask is if you have flown an sle/bow kite before?If you come from a C kite background then it might take a little time to adjust..but after a little practice you will nail it. I think everyone goes through this period.

I strongly suggest trying to find another OR rider in the area to see if they can fly it/take a look. Even someone else with a similar kite. Also I think setting #1 is good to start on and remove the 3m line extensions…as you will get a more direct feel.

If all else fails…I am sure Evan and JZ can help you out. They seem to be pretty busy right now unveiling the 09 gear but I would imagine they would respond soon.

Good luck and just keep remembering you will be stoked once we figure it out!


Total Posts: 7

Joined 2008-07-28

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Thanks for your comments Paul,

I have been kiting since 2 years now, but more seriously in the past year with 2 kite trips in the last year.
I would qualify myself as intermediate but I think I have a relatively good understanding of kite aerodynamics. I don’t think that my weight or board size should enter into consideration here because my problem is a flying problem and not a riding problem. But for information I am 78kg (172 lbs) and my board is 132cmX39cm.

I totally agree with you that the first thing to do is to have the kite flying above your head at the edge of the wind window and chek that it flies correctly without any bad tendency. Things like: Is the bar parallel to the ground when both back lines are under slight tension? Does it have a tendency to fly to the right or to the left (same thing)? Check tension in the back lines. Does it have a tendency to back stall or fly over your head? etc. Then modify the settings and trim to have every thing perfect. That’s what I would do, but I did not have the chance to do that since as soon as I was applying some steering, the kite was going back in the wind window (back stalling)...

Richard:
The setting with both front and back lines attached to their respective forward pig tails is setting #1. That’s the first setting I tried. It was just slightly better than setting #2 for me. When I said that the kite was falling down, I did not mean that the kite was flying too much towards the edge of the wind window, and then passing over my head and then falling down. I meant the contrary: the kite had the tendency to fly backward in the wind window and fall down backward. It was even doing that with some slack in the back lines… That, I would say, is an abnormal behavior. Normally, with some slack in the back lines, the kite should move forward to the edge of the wind window. I could barely steer the kite because to steer the kite you need to apply a tension on one back line or the other, but as soon as I was doing that the kite was going backward in the wind window. I had to apply very gentle steering to avoid back stalling. And, I repeat, the tendency to back stall was increasing as the kite was going up above me.

Dave:
I come from a C kite background but I have already flown bow kites without problems (Turbo Diesel, Crossbow, Switchblade). I have also flown the Nemesis HP which is an SLE.

I’ll try what you suggest: try with 20m lines and have some expert (preferably OR rider) to try and evaluate my kite.

May be the back lines were too slack but then I don’t understand why the kite would back stall then…


I am still open to any other suggestion. I am ready to try anything you think could correct the problem. I can also send picture if you need.

Vincent


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Total Posts: 434

Joined 2006-01-11

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Vincent,

There are only two possibilities here.

1) You have a problem kite and/or it is set up wrong. Very unlikely, especially since you have checked all the obvious as suggested above. Put it on setting #4 (the corners) and stick with that. Use the kook proof connectors and hook it up to the end knot. It’s dialed in like that - set it and forget it.

2) You are flying the kite that in wind that is either too light or too fluky and holey, and/or you haven’t got the sheeting in an out skills dialed in yet. Unless I missed something, it appears you haven’t actually ridden the kite on the water in decent wind yet. The kite is designed to perform optimally in rideable conditions, not beach flying in minimal wind.

My suggestion is you go and ride the kite in wind strong enough to get you comfortably upwind.  A couple of hours on the water and you’ll have the kite dialed. If you are oversheeting the kite by pulling the bar in when you should be relaxing it and letting the kite breathe, you will backstall it.

Give it a go and then we can take it from there.

Cheers,

Evan

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Total Posts: 84

Joined 2007-08-02

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Ah but weight is and board size, all physics.. You can be back stalling a kite on a 132x39 when someone your weight is on a bigger board riding along. More skill can do better too.  Building up speed and getting on top of the water increases the apparent wind of any kite. I see this all the time… not so great winds, lower average wind from high to low end.

Also for example. I may be fine on a 12m at 150lbs and you may be back stalling a 12m with the same size board. 25lbs difference can be made up with a bigger kite in the same wind such as a 14-16m or a bigger board. 99% of the time it’s something other than the kite itself.

I’ll be riding along with customer on my 12m while they 185lbs are on there 16 Rises.

When you get used to it, you will know and move to a bigger board or kite and get used to a cleaner wind day compared to gustier and holes. Many times when wind drops I just come in and get on a bigger board, then switch down to smaller when it picks up again. If it drops more, I put up a bigger kite.

I have to work this out all the time with students and lessons, getting the right day and getting them on the right gear. Shouting out “Sheet Out” so students don’t stall kites (tips the kite forward, slower reaction)... all kites will stall if to low a wind, or not moving the kite at times… Even pros have to trim in when they unhook (tipping kite forward) when at full power to keep any kites angle of attack best suited not to stall…

There are different explanation for intermediates. I call intermediates kiters that can stay upwind at least. If you can’t yet, the first thing I’d do is get you on a bigger board.

Rises are awesome kites… It will all come together. If your gear stays the same get the higher wind day. We all need that on small boards.

I was just following a student with my zodiac who was 165 on a big board and his 12m Rise. We were doing a down-winder. He was riding well but I knew if he was on a 16m he would be going upwind. If I told him to head upwind more and slowdown on his 12m, the kite would stall as any kite would. So he knows to just head down and flatten the board out unless the wind picks up. This way he knows he’s underpowered because I can tell by watching and knowing the wind. He was doing great.

Have fun! You’ll have a blast in the right stuff and as you improve…

I used to ride a 16m C kite most used kite… now I’m on a 12m Rise most… so much better and smaller, on the 8m when I was on my 11m-12m…

Vents are a huge improvement over 2007.

[quote author=“iwave”]
I would qualify myself as intermediate but I think I have a relatively good understanding of kite aerodynamics. I don’t think that my weight or board size should enter into consideration here because my problem is a flying problem and not a riding problem. But for information I am 78kg (172 lbs) and my board is 132cmX39cm.

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Total Posts: 7

Joined 2008-07-28

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Thanks a lot Paul to take the time to send me your thoughts and suggestions, I really appreciate that.
Once again I totally agree with all you said and understand that. But I realize now that I should have been more precise: I never rode my board on the water with the Rise. All I described in the previous emails was me flying the kite in static in the water, but without any board, trying to figure out what was going on with this kite… I was never able to try the kite with my board because, like I said, I was barely able to steer the kite to have it at the zenith above my head. As soon as I was steering the kite, it was back stalling and falling down backwards. And believe me, I was really paying attention not to pull the bar too much. That’s why I thought there was some problem but I could not figure out what. To give you a better idea of my level, I think I can say that I ride upwind and toeside easily (of course, it all depends on the conditions). I am now working on improving jumps, pop synchronization, backroll, frontroll, and some advanced transitions.

Evan, thanks for taking the time to reply as well,
I don’t think you could qualify the wind conditions as marginal, at least the second time I tried the Rise. I am pretty sure there was enough wind for the Rise 12m. The wind was between 12 to 17 knots and it was not fluky or holey. Like I said, there were about 20 kiters on the water with a variety of levels, most of them riding 11m to 13m. Besides, after I gave up with the Rise, I pumped my 9m 2008 (different brand). I was underpowered with my 9m (I expected that) but at least I was able to ride relatively easily but not able to stay upwind with my 132 board. So I don’t think it was a question of wind.

Perhaps, like you said, I still haven’t got the sheeting in and out skills dialed in yet for the Rise. So, to eliminate the human factor, I will ask some good rider to try my Rise and ask his opinion about it. But my gut feeling is that there something else going on because I have never experienced that with any of the kites I tried (about 20 different models).

Anyway, I’ll do what you suggest: try the kite again in some good wind day with setting #4.
I’ll let you know how it’ll go.

Cheers,

Vincent


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Total Posts: 1248

Joined 2006-01-10

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Vincent - Bottom line is this: you’ve worked very hard to get the kite to fly. Please try these last suggestions but if it still will not fly poperly please contact the shop you bought it from to have them take you out with the kite and if they can not get the kite to fly properly have them exchange the kite for you.

Ocean Rodeo stands behind our equipment 100% and, as you can see from this forum, there are hundreds of riders who have 12ms that fly perfectly. As such, if you can not get the kite to fly we will exchange it for you for one that does.

I appreciate the efforts you’ve put in and appreciate your purchase of Ocean Rodeo gear. Let’s keep you happy and on our equipment long into the future!

John Zimmerman - Ocean Rodeo Sales Manager.