Inside Scoop - 2011 Rise vs Razor

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Crew - be sure to check out my Blog posting for a full “John Z” perspective on the main differences between the 2 styles of kites this season. I have been asked a lot about the differences and thought I would blog a quick post to get it all out there.

Hope this helps guide your purchase decisions this spring!

JZ


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I’ve just spent the day playing on the 10m Razor and would have to agree with your comments on the jumps.  Which is a shame, coz I was out there thinking that you’d written something different about the Razor and was all set to contradict you. smile

With a combination of being slightly overpowered as the wind picked up and some judicious use of speed, I got some of the highest jumps I’ve ever attained. It does indeed rip you off the water, and although it doesn’t have that nice floaty glide that I love out of the Rise, I couldn’t help grinning from the adrenalin of that vertical take off.

It also behaved very well with a handful of trim.  My friend was nicely powered on his 8m Rise at the same time, where all other things between us are similar (weight, board size etc).  So that’s encouraging to know.

I really wanted to test it’s low end too, but that wasn’t happening today as the wind increased into the afternoon.  That can wait for another time.

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14m Rise ‘07, 12m Razor ‘12, 10m Razor ‘10, 8m Razor ‘11, 6m Razor ‘11
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the razor is a wicked wave kite, seems “snappier” than the rise, but gives you more feedback through the bar.. which was one of my gripes about the older rises (which i ride). means you can forget the kite and spot your wave!

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If you compare the 12m sizes of the Rise and Razor, which one makes it easier to go upwind in very light wind? According to the blog post, the “Razor sits deeper in the window than the Rise” so I would guess that the Rise allows to go upwind in a steeper angle?

Regarding turning speed, the text says that “the tighter arc of the Razor results in a faster turning kite”. How big is the difference on those big 12m sizes in let’s say 15 knots of wind?


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Vpas, I’m glad you try to keep me accountable, someone has to! I’m glad both you and Harry agree with my assessment though!

Twinkler, the Rise pulls upwind harder, no question. Especially if you move the bridle settings forward on both the front and back attachments - a setting most of the San Fran racing Crew all use. The Razor still goes to windward well but the Rise just naturally wants to jet to the outside of the window and will pull you up wind as a result.

Regarding turning speeds, the Razor 12 - imo - turns at a comparable speed to the Rise 10. However, it turns in a different way - I’m going to make Ross wince here but here’s my take - the Razor turns about itself, deep in the window. This results in it snapping around and staying powered. The Rise turns about its wingtip and seems to need to swing wide in the window before coming back through to generate power again. Both have their advantages, it just comes down to what you prefer!

JZ


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How is the jumping between a 12m Razor and a 12m Rise? I really like the 8m Razor, and how it boosts out of the water a lot quicker and harder than the Rise, but I was figuring that’s more because of the difference in size and speed of the kite then anything else.

At 185 lbs. I’m guessing I can hold the 12m Razor down to 18 or 19 knots, and then jump over to the 8m? Right now the 12m Rise with it’s extended range has been a nice complement to the 8m Razor, but I’m definitely thinking about upgrading to a 12m Razor as well.


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Johnz
 

“Twinkler, the Rise pulls upwind harder, no question. Especially if you move the bridle settings forward on both the front and back attachments - a setting most of the San Fran racing Crew all use. The Razor still goes to windward well but the Rise just naturally wants to jet to the outside of the window and will pull you up wind as a result.”


JZ
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John A. Zimmerman
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Ocean Rodeo Sports Inc
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Ocean Rodeo Performance Over Hype!

Hey Crew!! I am just a little curious about this comment. I have a 2010 Ocean Rodeo Rise and 11m kite and it does not have adjustments for the front bridle attachment.  There is one single attachment and then the obvious two attachments for the steering lines. Can someone fill me in on this? Did I recieve a factory dud??? Just trying to find out.

Jim

superiorkiteboarding.ca


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I think he meant the Razor, it has 2 pig tail attachments points on the LE for the front lines and the Rise has only one.


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I have an 8 and 10 of each kite and have been flying all of them, there is not much I can add to JZ’s detailed and well written blog post but here are a few of my observations.

I can fly the 8 Razor in winds that I would normally fly the 10 Rise, incredible low end.  The range is much tighter however, so if the wind is really variable or is forecast to pickup quite a bit during my ride I’ll generally take the Rise because of the range.  If the wind looks pretty steady I grab the Razor.  I’m 190 lbs, 6 feet, and can fly the 10 Razor in 15=18 mph and the 8 Razor is great at 18-22.  I fly my 10 Rise in 15-24 and the 8 Rise in 22-32 (ish). 

I have really come to appreciate having both on hand as the ride experience is similar yet very different if that makes any sense.  Razor is a bit more hard charging in my book, you have to be on your game, concentrate a bit harder, landings and loops are more powered (which makes em more fun but they hurt more if you miss).  I absolutely LOVE the full power through the turns, that was one of my only problems with the Rise.

Razor, better for unhooked tricks for sure.  But the Rise is probably the better all around 1 size fits all kite if you had to choose, it’s just so versatile.  I would say if you are working on mostly freestyle stuff or mostly wave riding.. Razor for sure, if you like to do it all and do a lot of floaty hooked in tricks, Rise. 

The Rise jumps, loops, screams upwind, huge range, fun on waves, floats for ever, really it can do it all.

The Razor loops like nothing else, full power through turns, jumps really high, and very smooth and stable unhooked, I can ride around for 30 seconds at a time unhooked and it’s smooth and stable.


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Hey Ghostdog, are you powered or just “going” on the 10m in 15-18mph? I use a 12m for most of my riding and I am having a hard time seeing myself with a 10m for my big kite. I like to ride powered!


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windjunky - 02 May 2011 03:39 PM

Hey Ghostdog, are you powered or just “going” on the 10m in 15-18mph? I use a 12m for most of my riding and I am having a hard time seeing myself with a 10m for my big kite. I like to ride powered!

I would say perfectly powered at 18 and overpowered at 22-23, but underpowered and really just going at 15.  15-17 would be a kind of ho-hum session, getting some moderate jumps and low altitude tricks in at the gusts… 17-20 would be really good, about where I would want to be, I like to be powered myself (but not digging in my heels, totally sheeted, no steering left on the kite over-powered.

If you had lots of 14-16 days I would stay with the 12, where I ride, we get more 16-20 days so the 10 is great for my ‘big’ kite (which is hard to believe!  My big kite used to be a 17 Fuel back in the day)


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17m fuel…. I used to have 17-13-9-7 2005 fuels. I never had a good time on that kite because as soon as I would rig it up, the wind would pick up just enough where I couldn’t hold it down any more.

So the 10m Razor has replaced your 17m fuel as far as low end is concerned? Really? I currently ride 12-9-6 Rises and I am looking to replace my 2009 12m before it get too old.


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windjunky - 03 May 2011 04:27 PM

So the 10m Razor has replaced your 17m fuel as far as low end is concerned? Really? I currently ride 12-9-6 Rises and I am looking to replace my 2009 12m before it get too old.

Not directly, I was just remarking that 6-7 years ago I used to have a 13,15,17 Fuel and thought the 13 was my small kite, now my 10 is my LARGE kite!!

I have not flow Fuel in at lesat 6 years.  I was on North Vegas 2006, then Naish Boxer 2007, then I found Ocean Rodeo and have flown the Rise since 2007.  Each year has been better!

I’m stoked about the Razor because it fills in a few gaps where the Rise was not perfect (speed through turns, unhooked stuff). 

The Razor is more similar to the Fuel when you think of smaller range than the Rise, but Razor has a much larger range than the Fuel, the Fuel was like a 3MPH range!


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windjunky - 03 May 2011 04:27 PM

? I currently ride 12-9-6 Rises and I am looking to replace my 2009 12m before it get too old.

you could easily replace your 12 Rise with a 10 Razor, they are pretty similar in low end.  I’m finding roughly that where I would take a 10 Rise I take the 8 Razor and where I would take the 12 Rise I take the 10 Razor.  I’m 190 lbs, and an 8 and 10 of each works for me in almost all conditions unless it’s over about 35 MPH in which case the 8 Rise gets a bit overpowered.

That said, in really light winds, it’s my feeling that the 12 Rise would go upwind better than the 10 Razor.  The Razor needs a bit of wind so you can dig your heels in and force the kite to the edge of the window, while the Rise is naturally far forward so you can stand up straight and still get upwind a bit.


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just want to chime in on this.  I have a 8m razor as my main kite.  Our inland conditions have been 18-30+ lately and the razor does just fine.  it is very smooth in the gusts and i have been able to ride out gusts in the high 30’s approaching 40.  I weigh 160lbs and ride a mako 150.

just wanted to give my 2 cents on the razor’s upper end as there seems to be a perception that it doesn’t do so well in gusty conditions.  keep in mind i have no experience with the rise and am coming from c kites.


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My first test flight of the 10 m Razor produced my biggest jump of my life. the first time I threw it back I felt like I got shot out of a cannon. It scared me because I just kept going up! I tested them all this winter and now have 10 and 12 Razors. I wanted a good wave kite for the coast, usually mid teens, and the 12 should be perfect. I agree with John Z comments. Good assessment of the Rise vs. Razor. I kept my 2010 Rise 7 m for the best Gorge kite I’ve ever used. Way to go OR!


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Had an incredible session on the 10 Razor yesterday. 

195 lbs
140CM twintip
10 Razor
22-25MPH
clean 4 foot waves

I’m really falling in love with the razor.  It has power where and when you want it.  I love the way it powers through turns and pulls you out of loops.  It’s smooth and powerful, and I’m super impressed by the range on the Razor given it’s a c-shape. 

What a session yesterday, just jumping to the moon, powered full speed tricks,  and the kite is so responsive in the air, you always know where it is and you can get it where you want really quickly.  I think yesterday was the day I really fell in love with the Razor as my goto kite!


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Wanted to debunk the mentions of less top end on the razor.  Had the six out yesterday for a couple hours in 25-35 knot gnarly, gusty, rainy, overland wind and couldn’t get over the comfort.  Totally inspiring.  Dragons breath gusts were sudden and strong, the kite smooth enough to make an easy go of it strapless.  Too gusty to even think about unhooking, but cruising felt like child’s play and I never found the throw on the freestyle bar short.  In fact it seems a perfect fit for the 6m with the kite pretty much shut off when the bar nears the stopper, never actually hit the stopper or touched the strap.  Absolutely awesome kite and I’m so stoked with its intuitive nature.  So much less attention wasted on the kite and put toward some of the most aggressive riding I’ve managed yet.  So much easier to commit when you feel that much control.  A bit mind blowing when you take a moment to appreciate the chaos going off around you.  The 6 can be very fast but its a smooth operator and easy to fly at whatever pace you want.  Lets you rip and gouge super hard yet come out the other side with the kite and the power where you want it.  If that was strapless, Its gonna be WAY too windy to max it out in boots!  I willingly draw the line at around 40 knots these days!

If I won the lottery tomorrow I wouldn’t change gear.  Add to it, maybe, but change it…. no way!

I feel like the guy who finally owns the porsche 911 that was on the wall in his bedroom as a kid.


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Brent you sure have an inspiring way of talking about this kite, if I didn’t own one myself I’d probably say it’s way exaggerated.
It’s not.

The Razor keeps surprising me, top-mid and low end, it doesn’t stop delivering - like you say right in your comfort zone.
On the low end, I was out last week in 15ish knots on the 10m, rotored winds and slow downwind current, when a buddy asked me to try the Razor. He gave me his 10m 2011 Zeeko Notus, which is a really nice piece of kit notorious for it’s crazy low-end. The Razor had about the same amount of power BUT is so much more aggressive and quicker, where the Zeeko needs half a second to spring to action, the Razor already is pulling directly upon bar input.

I’m really jealous with Ross, after designing this kite he just kicked back and only did minor tweaks and color changes, and spend the rest of the time surfing. Rightfully so wink


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Yeah, gets a bit flowery dont it?  Must be the poetry classes!  Funny enough a few of our local guys who took razors down to hatteras say they prefer the rise.  Different strokes for different folks I guess.  Probably ferrari fans!


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I just order a 12m Razor. I’ll post my opinion after a few sessions.


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Love seeing Brent’s enthusiasm for this kite here, I know he hummed and hawed for a bit about making the jump from his Diablos!

I agree with him too, my initial review said that the Razor struggled in the higher winds but I had the 6m out in Hatteras on a day that the gusts registered over 50 knots and I had a blast, an absolute blast. Mind you, I did have the bridle set forward to allow for a bit more depower.

Enjoy!

JZ


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it’d be cool to know the low end on the 12m razor


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Dunno about the 12m, but with the 10m Razor it doesn’t quite have the low end of the 12m Rise.  I’ve had a couple of days now where the wind has dropped and I’ve had to work the 10m Razor hard, then decided to change to the 12m Rise and had a better time of it.  It’s a close thing though, and I’m tempted to replace the 12m Rise with a 12m Razor.

Suffice to say, I love being out on the Razor and it’s the one I pump up if I get the chance now.  Had some great powered sessions on it.  Absolutely love the feedback, knowing where the kite is, the power it gives, etc and it looks great too. IMHO.

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going to have get my dirty hands on a Razor somehow. I’ve just got a feeling that it’s going to suit the direction and style I’m heading in.

Bribing Sunrise with sheep didn’t work. He just took the lot.

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A bottle of whiskey would probably work better.

The sheep might appreciate it too.

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14m Rise ‘07, 12m Razor ‘12, 10m Razor ‘10, 8m Razor ‘11, 6m Razor ‘11
129 Zen ‘09, 150 Mako ‘09, 159 Spleene Door, 6’1” Circle One


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Anyone who’s had both the 12m Razor and Rise, how does the lift compare between the two? I have an 8m Razor, and in comparsion to the Rise, it really yanks me off the water, where as the Rise is a bit easier to boost, but everything is slower. I’ve read that’s pretty much the difference between the two, but I’m wondering if the 12m Razor actually has more lift off the water than the Rise.

I really like my 8m Razor, but I ride a 12m probably 75% of the time, and the 8m the other 25%. Also, I’m just getting into riding a directional more and trying unhooked stuff, so I think the Razor might be the way to go.


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I’ve had the 8 and 12 Rise for 3 years 08/09/10 and then switched to the 8/12 razor this year.  I really like the way the razor handles, can’t echo that enough.  I haven’t had it in crazy gusty stuff yet, so no comment there (and I kept the rises just in case they gobble gusts more than the razor - one of the above posts makes me want to really push the razor in the gusty stuff).  As far as boosting between the 8 rise and 8 razor, I think the rise does the floaty part a bit better, but they both tear you off the water; the razor loops faster at the last minute).  Height wise they feel similar, but I have no picture evidence.  I can’t comment on boosting on the 12s - mostly when I’m riding a 12m I’m working unhooked stuff in lighter winds.  Personally I think the 8s in either rise or razor boost higher than the 12 of either because you’re in a higher windspeed, and generally much higher board speed, and much larger chop to start the boost.  I really like the turning speed of the razor over the rise for kiteloops - you really can put it anywhere in the window in milliseconds.  Just my two cents.  As far as wind range, I think they’re similar - the razor flies better in the light wind, and you can ride in a knot or two less wind, but to do the really fun boosts and tricks, there’s no substitute to more wind (with either kite)!!! smile


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ryelet - 29 May 2011 04:03 AM

the razor flies better in the light wind, and you can ride in a knot or two less wind

I’m confused now. How can the razor with a more C-like shape have better low-end than a rise? Did I miss a memo or something?


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Kites with a lower AR (fatter) have better low end and less top end then Kites with a higher AT (skinny).


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Wow,  Kingston turned on in fine form yesterday!  Had one of those perfect set ups.  Drop the kid at school, a couple hours helpin my dad out with tree removal while watching the wind kick in, then hit the lake feeling guilt free!  Was juiced on the 10 in boots right from the get go.  Had a little to a lot of strap pulled in when it drifted between say 23 and 28 knots.  Was thinking in the heavyer bits that I was stoked to learn a little bit about the top end of the 10m.  Was having a blast, and came to the decision that it indeed has less really comfy high end than some of the high end biased 10m kites out there and certainly all of the 9’s.  Wasn’t yanking me around or anything and I was cruising along without strain, but it was only in the lulls that I could handle loading up the kite and busting any kind of moves.  I figure anything over 25 knots in our bump and jump and I’m going with the 6.  Still, I was having a blast celebrating the return of the sun.  Had probably been riding for about two hours when I start to notice the fatigue and I kid you not, it blows up another 10 knots.  Wind meter shows sustained 38 knots for about 10-15 min!  Way too windy to risk our sketch exit points and I’m downwind from where I can get someone to catch it so I grunt it out.  Rediculous, trudging along upwind at about 2 mph.  At least two down winds bouncing skids, but eventually I made the 4 tacks up there to where someone was wating to catch it.  Not really fun, required 100% of my attention, but I managed it fine enough.  Earlier I had the kite do a funny little manta ray swim stroke when it self launched after a yard sale, but nothing unrully in the heavy stuff.  I wasn’t exactly whipping it around! 

Would have loved to throw up the 6 once it settled and have at er again, but alas it was time to be a parent.  Picked her up at school and had an ice cream while watching the other locals rip it up!

Pretty fun, and I certainly found the spot where I will choose to rig down!  Sore in every muscle today!!  Will post the wind graph from my home computer later.
EDIT:


Just so it doesn’t look like I’m talking too much out of my ass!

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Always a pleasure to read your write-ups Brent! You did well. By all accounts the 10m is pretty powerful. I’m not sure I have the balls to get one or need one for that matter when I can use the 8 in around 15mph. I think you’d have enjoyed the 8m Razor in those wind strengths!

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